Finding The Next Role with Judy Kirby


Bill Russell / Judy Kirby

This Week in Health IT

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August 21, 2020: Kirby Partners, an executive recruiting firm, places leaders in health IT and cybersecurity. Judy Kirby, CEO shares her valuable insights. What does it take to find the role you’re looking for? What has changed during the pandemic in terms of recruiting leaders? Your resume is probably the most important piece of paper you will ever own. It can open doors for you. How do you make it stand out and be noticed? Skills are the easy part. People really want to see results and forward thinking. Did you reduce turnover? Did you increase employee satisfaction? Did you encourage growth and have people get master’s degrees and get promoted? Next step, how do you ace that video interview? 

Key Points:

  • First step in the recruiting process is the white paper or position brief  [00:03:50]
  • Helping organizations understand the impact the RIGHT person can have is critical [00:05:10]
  • Resume mistakes and how to fix them [00:10:10]
  • Get better responses with stories not bullet points [00:20:00] 
  • Perfect your interview elevator pitch and keep it short! [00:20:30] 
  • We are seeing more and more female CIOs and CEOs [00:31:40] 
  • In technology, what you’ve done even 5 to 10 years ago can become so irrelevant. Focus on your recent successes. [00:13:30] 
  • How can you interview well? [00:16:00]
  • It’s a crazy environment out there, a lot of people have been furloughed or lost their job or they’re afraid they’re going to lose their job with downsizing and mergers and acquisitions [00:24:30] 
  • Check out Kirby Partners career coaching for executives [00:34:50]

Finding The Next Role with Judy Kirby

Episode 293: Transcript – August 21, 2020

This transcription is provided by artificial intelligence. We believe in technology but understand that even the smartest robots can sometimes get speech recognition wrong.

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Welcome to This Week in Health IT where we amplify great thinking to propel healthcare forward. My name is Bill Russell, healthcare, CIO, coach, and creator of this week in health. It has set a podcast videos and collaboration events dedicated to developing the next generation of health leaders. This episode and every episode, since we started the COVID-19 series has been sponsored by Sirius Healthcare. Now we are exiting the series and Sirius have stepped up to be a weekly sponsor of the show through the end of the year. [00:01:00] Special thanks to Sirius for supporting the show’s efforts during the crisis and beyond.

Today we are joined by Judy Kirby, who is the CEO of Kirby Partners, which is an executive, executive recruiting firm, really a retained search firm that places leaders in health IT and cybersecurity. I’ve known Judy for a long time. She has been doing this for a couple decades now, so she has great wisdom and insight into the process and what it takes to find the role you’re looking for.

So I, [00:01:30] I enjoyed the conversation. I hope you enjoyed as well. Today, we’re joined by Judy Kirby, CEO of Kirby partners and executive recruiting firm that specializes in leadership roles for healthcare IT and cyber security. And as is usually the case, Judy, the lawnmower’s coming by my window right now. As we start the podcast. Welcome to the show. 

Judy Kirby: Thank you very much, bill. Thank you for having me. 

Bill Russell: It never fails. It’s like you start the podcast and they come by with, with the heavy machinery right outside your window. [00:02:00] Where are you working? Are you, are you in the office yet? Are you still working from home? 

Judy Kirby: Actually, I have been working from the office virtually the entire time we are in a three story office building.

And right now there are only two offices where people are coming in. So it’s been really great and we can distance ourselves in the office, which is one of the reasons I can’t do a video today. So I apologize for that. 

Bill Russell: Yeah, no, probably. Well, people are looking at the best image. We could find of you. That’s what we’re going to be super [00:02:30] imposing here. what I, what I wanted to do today is, you know, for some people, this whole retain search thing is a, is a mystery. And so I want to shed some light on that. And then some questions around that I’ve gone through the process. And, you know, just some questions about gaps in time, between things, how to get your resume ready, those kinds of things, but also, you know, just want to talk about I’ve, I’ve coached and people, you, this is a service you offer you coach people.

There’s a lot of questions. I think people have with regard to [00:03:00] either getting ready for an interview, getting ready, in their career for the next step and those kinds of things. So I just wanted to run through some of those things. with you, if you’re ready, if you’re ready to go. 

Judy Kirby: Absolutely. 

Bill Russell: All right. So what does an executive search firm do? We’ll start with the broad question. 

Judy Kirby: Well organizations hire us because they have a problem and our goal is to solve their problem. And that problem really involves leadership in their technology or [00:03:30] cyber security arenas. And we serve as a trusted advisor to really help them define and plan their hiring strategies for those critical roles. But most importantly, we listen and give  counsel. 

Bill Russell: You know it’s interesting. I’ve seen one of those. what do you guys call them? Like the, the, the job description it’s not a job description. It’s like a binder that you give that talks about, you know, the, the area and all those things. What do you guys call those things?

Judy Kirby: We call them white papers, position [00:04:00] briefs, 

Bill Russell: it’s position briefs. And they’re pretty extensive. I mean, you’re you interview a lot of people to make sure that you can communicate in both directions. What do you usually put in one of those briefs? 

Judy Kirby: Depending a lot about the organization. We do a lot with the area because it’s not just the opportunity it’s normally, or at least in the past about relocating, you know, to be part of the team who knows what the future is going to bring around relocation in this [00:04:30] crazy environment we’re in right now. But it also talks about. Success factors, challenges. What they’re really looking in that opportunity. And what we try to do is really dig deep. We were working with one organization and they were replacing a 20 year employee, their CIO role. And in the first site visit, they said, we want somebody just like that.

Well, we ended up doing an assessment. What the organization felt they really needed. The [00:05:00] CEO turned 180 degrees on what he wanted, and it was amazing with a different CIO, what it has been able to do for the success of the organization. So helping organizations understand the impact the right person can have is a critical part of what we do.

Bill Russell: Well I mean, the location makes a huge difference. I’ve seen some searches. You guys do for some pretty remote, health systems, especially with cybersecurity. Cybersecurity is sort of a different animal [00:05:30] altogether in that the pool of, of resources is not as vast as people who generally want to be leaders within health IT and then you have to find people who want to move to, I don’t know, Myrtle beach or something to that effect.

I mean, that’s, that’s a, that’s a pretty challenging lift. Isn’t it? 

Judy Kirby: Everybody likes someplace different. You know, there are people who say, find me something in New York city and other people say, I’ll never go to a city area. I want a small [00:06:00] rural area. So every organization is different. Every person and their desires are different.

So there’s normally somebody for every position. We just have to get out there and find them. 

Bill Russell: So it’s interesting. Let’s talk about the process a little bit. I I’ve seen you at HIMSS. I’ve seen you at CHIME. You, you take an awful lot of meetings, I assume that’s so that you, you know, the people so that when somebody comes to you and says, Hey, look, we need, we need for a rural location.

You’re like, Hey, I [00:06:30] know off the top of my head, I know a handful of people that are very interested in a rural location. I mean, how do you approach us? What is the, what does the process look like? I guess we’ll start with what’s the process look like for you to get engaged with the health system, and then what’s the process to find a pool of candidates. 

Judy Kirby: Well, normally organizations will call us and several other firms and try to find the right partner for them that fits. And then we help them understand what success of this position is going to look like. Skills are the easy [00:07:00] part. The real important part is finding an individual who will really mesh with their mission, their value, and the personality of the organization.

And with that being said, We work with organizations to ensure that they’re really considering a diverse slate of candidates. So they can really benefit from the, you know, the different perspective and experiences. Once we’ve got that defined, written the position brief, we get out there and recruit.

We look for those [00:07:30] individuals who are both qualified and interested and we evaluate and screen them and narrow to a slate of candidates so that we can present those who really closely fit with the organizational profile. 

Bill Russell: I’m sure there’s listeners out there right now are saying, you know, why have I never gotten a phone call from you?

I mean I’m a, you know, I’m the next C a good CIO for a health system. I’m in, a number two position at a health system. Why are they not getting a call? How do they sort of [00:08:00] get into  that flow of communication to know about the next position and to be contacted when it becomes available?

Judy Kirby: Well, we do our as much due diligence as we can trying to find every individual out there in certain positions and meet them and know them. We don’t know everybody, we try and, you know, we’ll keep going until we do. But obviously there are some of us who work exclusively in health care. And [00:08:30] if those individuals are looking for opportunities or just want to talk about their career, reach out to executive search firms, make that relationship schedule some time to meet a CHIME OR HIMSS if we ever have those in person again, if not reach out and just have a conversation with them, get to know them and have them know you. That’s the important part. 

Bill Russell: Yeah. At the CHIME meeting, you generally have a breakout session that’s available for people and, and I’ve attended. I attended one of those.

It was [00:09:00] really actually. Pretty fascinating. Cause you guys really handle it well, in terms of it was both, allowing people who are more senior in that room to talk about, you know, how they progress through their career and, and those kinds of things. But then you had junior people in that room as well that you gave a voice to. How do you, again, what are, so CHIME was an interesting one and I think we will be meeting again next year. Hopefully I don’t know about this year, but. are, are there other [00:09:30] ways that people get into that flow? 

Judy Kirby: Absolutely. Just reach out and talk, reach out through LinkedIn, you know, call an organization, say, you know, I just need some time. I want to talk. Most organizations are perfectly willing to spend the time getting to know you and giving you counsel. 

Bill Russell: Yeah. And you and you guys post on LinkedIn, I’ve seen your posts out there. So that’s another way that people can just connect in. let’s let’s talk about the [00:10:00] resume a little bit. how important is the resume?

Judy Kirby: You know Bill, I would say that if you’re good at what you do, you’re not going to be looking for a job that often. So resume writing is not really a skill that most people use on a regular basis. And unfortunately, most people are never taught how to write a resume. That’s going to stand out and get them interviews.

And arguably, this is probably the most important piece [00:10:30] of paper you will ever own and done. Right? It can open doors for you. Done wrong in your resume will probably end up into the infamous HR black hole. And, you know, for those that hire, you know, think of all the horrible resumes you’ve had to call through where you normally take 40 to 30 seconds to scan it.

And if nothing stands out where it’s confusing and cluttered, you’re done with it, and you may actually not get a position for [00:11:00] which you’d be an amazing fit. 

Bill Russell: Yeah, I don’t think I’ve written mine. My resume has been done by somebody else. Probably. I think about 20 years ago was the last time I wrote a resume and I found the process to be extremely valuable.

And the process is essentially they they’re asking you about each one of your roles and your experience. And they’re saying, what did you do? What was the value you brought to the organism? They were just asking me these questions and it’s [00:11:30] interesting what they pulled out versus what I probably would have written on a piece of paperwork. Very different. Why, why do you think that is?

Judy Kirby: Because they’re looking at it from a different perspective than you are. You’re so close to it. And when we help someone with her resume, we don’t write it for them. We ask them the questions and we get them thinking about what they want to do next. I think that’s the key is where do you want to go?

And tailoring your resume to that next [00:12:00] position and looking forward to what would an organization want to see that I’ve done and putting those things in. And I think one of the biggest things is individuals don’t qualify. A lot of times their working section session looks like they swallowed a job description rather than how well they do it. So if you’ve managed 50 people that tells me nothing, you know, did you reduce turnover? Did you increase [00:12:30] employee satisfaction? Did you encourage to grow and have people get master’s degrees and get promoted? That’s what makes you stand out? You’re still saying the same thing, you know, I managed a team of 50 but here’s what I did with it. Other than. Here’s what it was. And that’s the crucial part to making your resume stand out? 

Bill Russell: Well, it’s a, so mistakes people make, so in healthcare, it’s interesting because you have very well educated [00:13:00] people. So they’ll have papers they’ve written, they’ll have places they’ve spoken, they’ll have experienced over the years. Do you have a rule of thumb for how long a resume should be? I’ve seen eight page resumes. 

Judy Kirby: I think our record was from a CMIO. That was 35 pages. our, our re our rule of thumb is try to fit it on two pages.

What in technology, what you’ve done even five to 10 years ago [00:13:30] becomes so irrelevant with the changes, make them real short. You never want to leave anything off your resume of what you’ve done, but what you did there isn’t as important as what you’re doing now. Concentrate on your last five to 10 years.

Bill Russell: It was interesting. The questions to me is like I watched the one statement about you. Okay. Innovative CIO that, you know, that leans into, you know, progressive ideas and delivers results for the organization. Is that great? All right. That’s your, that’s your [00:14:00] phrase, but they don’t care what your phrase is. That’s your phrase. Great. Let’s talk about your experience. And so, as you’re talking about your experience, everything should sort of demonstrate innovative CIO that leans into, you know, forward thinking. That delivers results. It should communicate what you want to communicate. It is, it’s almost a sales document, isn’t it?

I mean, it’s, nobody looks at the resume and says, this is the person they’re hiring, they go, this is the person, put them in the pool of candidates. So it is almost a sales document that [00:14:30] you don’t get to really support. You don’t get to talk through for the most part. 

Judy Kirby: It is, and it has to stand by itself to get you to that next level with whomever, whether it’s a executive search firm or whether it’s, you know, you’re submitting it yourself, it has to stand on its own is showing value and showing interest of why they would want to talk to you and have you explain how you did what you did. 

[00:15:00] Bill Russell: All right. So any, do do any of these creative, you know, some people said, well, I sent a video in, or I send a, you know, infographic in, or I said it does any of that stuff work or not at the executive level. 

Judy Kirby: I think it may work in some verticals if you’re in a very creative type of environment. Yes, it may. If you’re a Google, it may. Healthcare is very. Stayed and tends to do the same things the same [00:15:30] way. I’m not sure that it really works. 

Bill Russell: Yeah. All right. Let’s talk about the interview process. You and I actually were talking a little bit about this before we got on the line, and I think people have a lot of questions about the interview process, you know, is, I mean, there’s the questions of what are people looking for, but is there a way I can prepare ahead of time?

For the interview. I mean, is there, is there something like research that you tell people that to do or to prepare [00:16:00] you tell them to, I don’t know. As you tell them to do practice interviews what do you generally coach people to do? 

Judy Kirby: We coach them a lot when we’re working with them, either as a candidate or a coaching client, because the video interview can either make it or break it for you. And now interviews, video interviews have become the norm and very few people have experienced to really do those well, everything from, and I know I commented on your amazing background [00:16:30] to some people having. Clutter to some people having animals jump up on the desk in front of them, but it all comes down to, you’ve got to do your research, both on how to do an interview well, and on the organization on the position, you’ve got to make sure that you can highlight in your background what they want to hear, but you also have to practice a video interview.

You have to make sure that you can connect to the [00:17:00] platform they’re using that your bandwidth is enough that it’s not going to hang up. These things are so important. And as you and I were talking about first impressions, and if you’re late, because you couldn’t get your video working and you’re in technology, that’s speaks volumes.

So you really want to practice with somebody, record yourself, look at it. Look for tells, look for, you know, ticks, look for your background. Preparation is absolutely the [00:17:30] key to success for video interviews. 

Bill Russell: I think the, you know, on, on average, when I’ve gone to a CIO series of interviews, generally it’s over two visits and there are, I don’t know, anytime you travel to the location, there’s probably at least, I think the minimum I’ve spoken to is about six, but generally you’re talking to a fair number of people every time you visit. I mean, is there, is there a different approach if you’re talking to a [00:18:00] CFO versus a CEO versus a, you know, the president in charge of the physician group and I mean, or are you trying to just communicate the  same thing as you get in front of those different constituents. 

Judy Kirby: Absolutely not. A CFO is going to have very different interests in what you can do for him or her versus the CMO or somebody else. So you want to tailor what you can do to give [00:18:30] examples of how you’ve been as successful dealing with.

Concerns the CFO has or concerns a CMO has or concerns a CNO has. Taylor success factors, and be able to tell stories. This is really about engaging and being able to tell a story about how you solve the problem because you know, organizations. Interview, they’re looking for somebody to solve that problem, as I mentioned earlier, and the best indicator of whether you can solve a problem [00:19:00] is how you’ve solved them in the past. So think through how to tell stories. 

Bill Russell: Yeah, that’s one of my friends always says the past performance is the best indicator of future results. So, But I love the fact that you’re talking about telling a story. This is one of the things that in the interview process is so important to be able to tell a story to creatively demonstrate what you’ve done, but it’s also a skill that I’m talking to CEOs about.

So I coach CEOs, and one of the [00:19:30] things we talk about is. You know, the ability to tell a story around whatever the next initiative is in order to get funding, you have to be able to articulate. you know, and generally what we’ve done before is we’ve gone in and said, Hey, there’s this problem. Here’s our solution. Here’s what we’re going to do. And that’s not as effective as saying. Hey, look, let me tell you the story of this patient and this patient, blah, blah, blah. And they ran into this challenge. Here’s how this would have looked. If we had put something like this in [00:20:00] place, we respond to stories so much better than bullet points, I think.

And you know, and, and so when we’re getting ready for interviews, we’ve gotta be able to really package up who we are in a, in a, in a good set of stories. any mistakes that people make an interviews? 

Judy Kirby: Oh, the number is so great. 

Bill Russell: Okay. Should I just tell my stories of the mistakes I’ve made.

Judy Kirby: I think the number one mistake that I hear [00:20:30] is people not being succinct and somebody will say, tell me about your career. And what you want to do is you had that elevator pitch. You want to be able to tell short elevator pitch. In about two weeks minutes, we had people who’ve ambled on for 15 minutes, you know, starting back when they were born in a log cabin and you know, in Illinois, rather than being able to articulate the value, what their career has gotten them to this point, it will benefit the [00:21:00] organization because the organization is looking for the benefit you’re going to bring.

And you’ve got to be able to articulate that benefit, you know, as we talked about through stories and you can normally figure out what questions are going to be asked, you’ve interviewed enough people you’ve been interviewed enough of your career. You can prepare by thinking through what would I ask me if I were interviewing me for this position?

And then think about the stories that you want to tell along those lines. That’s the key part. 

[00:21:30] Bill Russell: Yeah. And you’re, you’re the, you’re my best friend. If you’re, if you’re the executive search firm, that’s bringing me in, you’re my best friend. Cause you’re gonna, you’re gonna say, Hey, look, here are the people you’re interviewing with. The reason they’re going out to search is because, you know, they’re replacing a 20 year CIO or they’re replacing somebody who, who, had to move on because of a challenge they were facing with it. I mean you’re going to give you all sorts of clues. I mean, you want me to be successful in the interview, so you’re going to, you know, [00:22:00] you’re going to coach me as I go in. I assume that people really take advantage of that going into those interviews. 

Judy Kirby: Absolutely they do. And you know, we want to help you be the best you can be during that interview. That’s amazing. You get into this interview when you get nervous because you haven’t done it. And everything that we have suggested you do sort of goes out the window.

And we are doing a CIO search for Sharp, and we got to sit in [00:22:30] on all the first rounds of interviews. And it was amazing to really sit in and watch these. And this was just, you know, in January. So it was really amazing to sit in and watch and see where we had coached people where they’ve listened and where we should have coached them more.

Because of what came out, you know, during the interviews. So I think it’s just really listening and helping individuals be the best they can be. 

Bill Russell: Yeah, I can imagine. So, I mean, you talked about video. [00:23:00] What else has changed during the pandemic in terms of this process? 

Judy Kirby: We have had at least eight individuals who have accepted positions and relocated or taken virtual jobs for now who have never met anybody in the organization, never seen it face to face.

And we had one, we were doing the Chief Privacy Officer for Geisinger and the individual had never been to Danville, bought a house and moved there. Totally [00:23:30] virtually through real estate tours and everything else. So that’s entirely a new paradigm that we have not had to address before. And it’s tough.

Bill Russell: Interesting. How have the requirements changed of what people are looking for in leaders as a result of the pandemic? 

Judy Kirby: No, but they’re being more cautious in hiring. You know, I think a lot of the financials have to do with it. I think knowing that they can’t make a [00:24:00] mistake or don’t want to make a mistake, now it’s too important. So I think they’re more cautious. I think individuals are more cautious, but with that being said, you’re seeing a lot more people who are applying for positions now than we’ve seen in a long time. 

Bill Russell: Really? That’s, that’s surprising to me. I mean, do you have a speculation as to why that is. 

Judy Kirby: There are a lot of people who have been furloughed or lost their job. We’re doing one right now where we’re looking for [00:24:30] a Director or Senior Director of Analytics. And we’ve had people from outside the industry, people from high levels in banking, VPs of huge organizations, they’ve lost their job and are coming and saying, I want this and it’s why do you want this? And they give some reason, but it’s really because they’re without a job.

So it’s. You know it’s a crazy environment out there, or they’re afraid they’re going to lose their job with downsizing and mergers and acquisitions. 

Bill Russell: I think we’ve seen too, [00:25:00] what we keep seeing are just Cone Health and Sentara just came together. You know, I I’ve spoken to healthcare leaders and I’ve gone through the process, as I’ve said, you know, sometimes there’s things that we sort of sit back and go, what is going so long pauses in between the interview and the time you hear back. I mean, what’s typically happening during those pauses?

Judy Kirby: A lot of times we have a final interview going on. And the organization [00:25:30] for the three candidates who are interviewing gave us a four week period over which those interviews are going to take place. So if you’re first, you’re waiting a long time to get in, and then we try to really counsel the organization.

The minute we start, we say, we want the times for the first interviews, the second interviews and meetings on the decision to be scheduled on your calendar. Sometimes they are really good and listen to us. Other times they say, well, we’ll do it as we get along. academics, [00:26:00] as you can imagine, are the worst, trying to get people on calendars and then a lot of times they’ll have to reschedule because something more important comes up. Or something they perceive as more important comes up. So organizations really take a long time. We try to keep people informed as best we can, but sometimes it’s very embarrassing for us and we feel badly when we’re saying we’re not hearing back from the organization on which way they want to go.

And, you know, we can’t do anything to hit him [00:26:30] up. We try, but sometimes they just take too long. 

Bill Russell: So, and this might be just a specific challenge that I had. So when I left St. Joe’s I did an interview for a job. I ended up coming in second, which was, you know, there’s no, there’s no runner up prize. You don’t get a check, you don’t get anything. But it was interesting in the interview process because there was this long, extended period, and it was kind of, kind of interesting. And then I heard through the grapevine, essentially that they were offering the job to somebody else. [00:27:00] And so I called the recruiter and I said, are they just keeping me on the hook in case the negotiations don’t go well, and you can tell, I sort of caught him off guard.

And you know, if you’re well connected in the industry, you can find things like this out. And he just said, yeah that’s exactly what’s going on right now. I mean, is that a, is that a normal process that they have like a backup candidate that they’re, they’re not communicating with so that they can try to get their primary candidate [00:27:30] closed before they move on?

Judy Kirby: Absolutely. And we will say, are you ready for us to let this person know they’re no longer in consideration? And sometimes they’ll say, yes, we are. And other times, no, let’s just keep them, you know, in our back pocket in cases, negotiations don’t go well. So yes, that is common to do. And again, we’re trying to do what our client wants, but trying to be as transparent and informative to the candidates as we are allowed to be.

Bill Russell: And I think [00:28:00] that’s one of the things that people mistake. Your client is the health system. They’re the ones who are paying you. They’re the ones. And so you get such a close relationship with the candidate. I think sometimes they feel like you’re representing them in some ways you do represent them, but you work for the health system.

Judy Kirby: Exactly. And it’s tough. But we try to again, be as transparent and honest with everyone as we can through the process. [00:28:30] And we have one client where we are to do a presentation of candidates at the end of next week. And we called them last Friday and said, we’ve got an amazing individual who’s interviewing elsewhere. We’d like to go outside our norm of presenting the slate and present this person early so that you can at least talk to them. So that’s where we do represent candidates a little differently and sort of push the client because we feel this individual would be amazing on their team. 

[00:29:00] Bill Russell: You know, one of the questions I ask, just is around female leaders.

So are there any special words for female leaders in health IT who are aspiring to executive roles? 

Judy Kirby: When a position is open. There’s been a study that men will apply for it if they meet about 50% of the criteria, women wait to apply for it until they reach virtually a hundred percent. They want to make sure they can [00:29:30] do the job where I think they may be a little less risk adverse where males are, I can do this.

I’ve got 50% of the skills. So I think I would counsel them to really look at where. You are applying and are there positions that might be a stretch, but you could really sell your ability to go in there and be successful. I think that would be my primary counsel for them, but I think women are doing a better job of taking, you know, going to [00:30:00] chime bootcamp and getting master’s degrees and really deciding where they want to go and how to get there and doing it. So hopefully they’ll continue along that path. 

Bill Russell: Yeah, I have a coaching client that is a female executive in a health tech startup, and it’s, and she’s not at the CEO or CIO level. She’s one step below that. And it’s, it’s been eye opening for me to just hear the stories and to hear what she [00:30:30] faces just in terms of you know, just challenges that it’s just, I’m just, I might be ignorant of them.

I just didn’t recognize they existed. Everything from, you know, essentially being the only woman in a room full of engineers and technicians, which has its own challenges to not being potentially not feeling like they’re ready for the next role. I mean, I think I’ve told her like half dozen times she’s ready for the next role. She’s got all the skills she’s got. Let’s just say it this way. She [00:31:00] has as many skills as everybody else is going to apply for whatever the next role is. And you just have to take that. You have to take that step. 

Judy Kirby: It’s confidence and it’s building your confidence and looking around and saying, yeah, I can do that too, because I think, you know, again, as I said, I think sometimes women are more reluctant to step up and say what they think.

Yeah. And, you know, have that fear of being rejected, but you have [00:31:30] to be rejected along the way to get to where you want to be. So just keep plugging away and keep going for those positions. And I think you know, we’re seeing more and more female CIOs, we’re seeing more and more female CEOs. So I’m really happy that we’re making progress. We still have a lot of progress to make, but we’re getting there. 

Bill Russell: You know, actually I’m going to ask you like what services and how people can contact you, but I wanted to hit on cybersecurity real quick. I mean, what are you seeing in cybersecurity right now? Is there, [00:32:00] is there still a, not as big of a pool of candidates as we would like?

Judy Kirby: There’s a good pool of candidates, but a lot of them are outside of healthcare because healthcare has been so late to the game and in cyber security, you know, we joke that before the EHR and 2009, 2010 security was locking the doors in the filing cabinets when you left at night, because who cared about scheduling systems.

But so they’re late to the game and those outside [00:32:30] of technology or healthcare technology are too expensive to come in for the most part. And you’re losing a lot of the ones from healthcare who are trained, who can go elsewhere and make more money. So I think that’s the biggest challenge. And I think also healthcare is not sure where this position should report or what it should be like. And it’s very different across organizations. 

Bill Russell: That’s fascinating. So, [00:33:00] so we should maybe adjust our. expectations of what we’re going to pay for a, a high end, Chief Information Security officer, or Chief Security Officer for a health system. And, and we really need to think of how they, how they report into the organization.

I know that our Chief Information Security Officer and Shief security Officer did not report to me as the CIO. And that was my doing by the way, when I came in, it did report to me. And I broke it out and we hired a [00:33:30] phenomenal chief security officer. And I think part of it was, you know, they got to do presentations directly to the board that they, you know, and we worked very closely together, but they were on par with the CIO within the organization, given the visibility of security, I’m not, that’s still feels right to me. Is that, is that, is that what you’re seeing? 

Judy Kirby: Not enough. And a lot of people who want to come into healthcare from outside are looking at reporting [00:34:00] structure. But I think, again, it’s the level of the position and organizations they say, well, you know, we look at parody internally and we can’t pay a person that much because of the level they are. And all I can say to them is look at what it will cost you with a brief, look at it. What it will cost you from your patients. You know, feeling about your organization, you know, your image, but yet they, healthcare still doesn’t see how important it is. 

[00:34:30] Bill Russell: Yeah. And I think that’s good. It’s just going to continue to evolve.

What kind of services, what kind of things are you offering at this point? Are you, you’re helping people with their resume. You’re helping people with interviews. You’re you’re doing, I mean, what, what services are you guys 


Judy Kirby: Well, we’ve started a whole coaching series, you know, to help people with a career, everything from, you know, sort of talking about what do you want to be when you grow up and really looking at where those gaps are in skills to get you [00:35:00] where you want to be to interviewing to salary negotiation, to resume writing, just anything along line.

We had somebody who called us and said, I’ve got an interview. I need to do. Interviewing, you know, can you do it? So we were able to fit him in that week because he really needed it to move ahead. He had interviewed quite some time. So we do offer that full range of services and that’s come about and just a very short time, because we felt the need for it, that there is such a [00:35:30] gap between what a person has and how they’re able to present that.

Bill Russell: Yeah. And I, I almost say that, you know, you were talking about health systems, looking at the cybersecurity roles and reevaluating, what it’s worth. you know, I, I had my resume written all those years ago and a couple of times since then, I think it’s like a couple hundred bucks for me to have somebody rewrite it.

And in the scheme of things, the, you know, when you look at what an annual salary is, that was, that was really nothing. [00:36:00] And to have coaching on an interview is invaluable. If you get the role, right. I mean, These are the investments we make in ourselves. And, you know, to an individual who’s out of work, it might feel like, you know, a thousand or so dollars is a lot, but if it helps it to land that job, it really is one of those, you know, MasterCard moments where it’s priceless.

Judy Kirby: I think it all comes down to Bill, building their confidence and getting them to [00:36:30] think of the value they bring. You know, all too often. We know we’re good at what we do, but we don’t realize how good we are. And if somebody helps you pull out and you look and say, yeah, you know what? I am really good at that, that translates into the resume.

It translates into the interview. It translates into how you present yourself. 

Bill Russell: Well, Judy, we’ve been trying to do this, this podcast since I started, and this is episode like 293. So I am [00:37:00] so glad we made this happen. 

Judy Kirby: It has taken a while and I’m not. So I’m surprised why I just at that time has just never been right. So I really appreciate your tenacity on this. 

Bill Russell: Yeah. And, and I appreciate you taking the time to come on. We will have to, make it a more regular occurrence. I will continue to at, to hound you via email and other ways. and we’ll do this again next year. 

Judy Kirby: Please do I look forward to it, Bill.

Bill Russell: You know, that’s one of the things I miss about not having conferences. [00:37:30] It’s, it’s running into those people in the industry that you just haven’t seen in a while that you just love catching up with. I really appreciate Judy and the work that she does and the friendship that we’ve been able to strike up over the years.

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